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one word about itself

Discussions about problems encountered using ffmpeg.
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one word about itself

Postby bluntroller » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:06 pm

Hello guys,

Well... I am VERY patiently looking into ffmpeg for quite a while or so after it was on my 'pending list' already for long...
I don't want to let it taken away from me to publish my 'mustard' about it (again -> O ).

First some basic background.
I run a couple of servers, an exit relay for the tor-network and stuff like that.
I compile kernels, write programs my self in different languages and believe to know what I am doing when it comes to using an Operating System.
I am using (for 'such kind of things/ffmpeg') an UbuntuStudio realtime-engine with sufficient hardware-resources.

ffmpeg sucks!
I 'googled' or more exactly 'duckducked' the whole web for information about how to set up a streaming environment either with ffserver or dash.js to (in the end) stream whatever 'into a html-video tag'.
The information available is less than satisfying.
Broken links in the ffmpeg wiki or links without content, a lot of links (I am not able to post but I am sure you crawled them yourself too) in the internet not belonging to the ffmpeg wiki or it's (ok but not comprehensive enough) documentation page who just bring incomplete results et cetera. It's not very sparkling if you need to study a commandline tool for weeks just to get a little clue about what its capabilities are.

Don't get me wrong folks, I believe you are doing the best you can and this here ain't be criticism of some disappointed dude who seeks revenge against the rest of the world. Buzzer.
I just want to be constructive here.
I believe that the developers not just of this software 'don't see the forest because of too many trees any more'.
If you continue like that (to produce a non-user friendly piece of very precious software) you'll end up in a very limited and small circle of people able to use ffmpeg.
Oh yeah, I made it work... no problem :-/
Drupal is such a special candidate of mine to mention at this point.

Already counted the options of the configure script?
Hey what's going on people..?
Not everybody sits in a wheelchair and eats his/her lunch with a straw to be a bit sarcastic.

In my opinion (and I believe I am not alone) you should seriously consider re-evaluating the concept.

Publish more bullet-proofed samples with exact application propositions, extend the documentation and don't just publish the switches without any further explanation.
That really sucks and costs the people on the user side a lot of time, patience and can become a serious psychological problem.

I am out.
Admin feel free to delete my account

Greets
Gee
bluntroller
 
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:47 pm

Re: one word about itself

Postby llogan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:40 pm

bluntroller wrote:I 'googled' or more exactly 'duckducked' the whole web for information about how to set up a streaming environment either with ffserver

Don't waste your time with ffserver: it is essentially unmaintained. Almost nobody provides any help for it because I suspect few (know how to) actually use it...just look at the question to answer ratio in the ffsever section of this forum.

bluntroller wrote:Broken links in the ffmpeg wiki or links without content

Which links on the wiki are broken? I will fix them. Which links do not have content? (You should be able to post links on this forum after making one post.)

bluntroller wrote:Publish more bullet-proofed samples with exact application propositions, extend the documentation and don't just publish the switches without any further explanation.
That really sucks and costs the people on the user side a lot of time, patience and can become a serious psychological problem.

The documentation is not perfect. Video is very complex and is a field where things change quickly; therefore development is very active, and on top of that ffmpeg can do a lot of things. Providing/re-writing documentation that works for all users to be able to do what they want with minimal time investment for such a large project and complex topic would be challenging and probably a full time job, but we are just volunteers. I often want to improve the documentation here and there, but I have other things I must do in everyday life (day job, drive home, walk dog, make dinner, do the dishes, etc) before I can sit down and invest time doing that. For example, instead of working on the documentation I spent some FFmpeg time today trying to provide a few instances of user help, and there are always more questions to answer.
Get an answer more quickly by providing your actual ffmpeg command and the complete console output. Use the code button to format your command and output or your question will be ignored.
llogan
 
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Location: Alaska

Re: one word about itself

Postby bluntroller » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:58 pm

Hello

usually I expected 'again' some storm of indignation on my criticism of the holy grail in form of the voluntary developers of ffmpeg.
Look man, I am not the director or whatever here and I apologize if I do not always find the right words or expressions - I am German, no Englishman.
It's just my personal opinion I publish here to make that clear and I don't attack, I just show up.
I am grateful for what I get from you, clear?
I'll try to take position and reply to your question as good and as focussed I can.

First... WHAT THE FUCK man, you are ALL volunteers, no pro's?
You should definitely think about your marketing strategy if ever you have one and reconsider what you are doing here.
This project/product is a very fine piece of software and you should definitely make money with it.

Also consider the fact that not all people who are trying to or do use ffmpeg come from a technical background, even if I think that most are because of what it is.
If you show some 'average internet user' your man-page they get a life-crisis if you know what I mean.
For this kind of specie a documentation must run down like oil.

By the way, there is no GUI-Interface for ffmpeg yet which includes all or almost all possibilities the commanline offers am I right?
I am not talking about Handbrake or some Firefox-extension for Youtube.
Why not?
You hack systemcalls into the kernel but are not able/willing to develop a GUI with the help of GTK or QT?
Sad. And no, I can't why ever...

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki

Take a look.
First you come on the brilliant idea to put right below the headline the bug-report links.
Are you kidding me?
That belongs to the very end as should almost be the developer documentation right below.
What are you thinking when you design your pages?
That's an example for what I mean if I say 'end up in a very small circle of people'...
It continues with sponsoring programs (okay, I admit... you are volunteers and need every penny you can squeeze out of stingy little ucks like me...)
Conferences and community contributed documentation before you finally get to the white meat.

In my opinion that's all totally wrong.
Who are you trying to address most?
The (very few) people who find bugs or the (very few) sponsors et cetera or the users of you product?

At least I personally like the style - it's not so blown up with fat coloured links like for example the Debian or Arch page or filled with pictures, videos or irritating ads. COMPLIMENT!

So what's next?
Ah yes, ffserver...
Why do you stop developing ffserver?
I was and I am aware of it but I ask myself why?
I my opinion you should continue, extend it.
I can just guess that you probably have not enough time for it to continue.
And yes, I read the comment about its discontinuing.

Getting to the point about the example application of ffmpeg.
Aforementioned users (as lazy ones like myself) expect a very easy to understand and comprehensive man-page without for example splitting command-lines over several lines more than necessary which complicates the readability.
The ffmpeg (and similar program's) command-line is hard to read and understand enough.
There are on the other hand good and working examples (tested it out in the past weeks) but when it comes to live-streaming things get a little tighter.
Again, in my opinion the structure and display of these could be better.

[Off-topic/ not site specific]
When will there be a comprehensive, sound and in itself closed documentation about how to get a webm-stream 'into' and html video-tag?
If you take a look at these pages which show up under the top 25 google or whatever search-engine queries
(query: webm live stream ffmpeg)

https://www.virag.si/2012/11/streaming-live-webm-video-with-ffmpeg/ no
http://wiki.webmproject.org/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-do-webm-live-streaming-via-dash soso
https://support.metacdn.com/hc/en-us/articles/204513935-How-to-Live-Stream-Using-FFmpeg nope
https://danielreutter.de/2015/08/livestreaming-mit-ffmpeg-und-html5/ nope
http://www.bogotobogo.com/VideoStreaming/ffmpeg_http_live_streaming_hls.php the worse

Okay, you can ask now why don't you do it better?
I need to encounter the question why should I?

Towards the mentioned emty links:

If I recall right this -> https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Map for example wasn't visible until yesterday. (content, link itself exists)

Actually I searched through all links I visited the past few days and on first sight I can't find much I missed the days before.
I will update you as I am not done yet with the wiki.
If is also possible that I a mixing things a bit with other sites like this -> http://wiki.webmproject.org/ .
bluntroller
 
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Re: one word about itself

Postby mulvya » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:54 pm

If this is meant as constructive criticism, it should go on the ffmpeg-devel mailing list.
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Re: one word about itself

Postby bluntroller » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:46 pm

If this is meant as constructive criticism, it should go on the ffmpeg-devel mailing list.


Yes, nothing more... nothing less...

Es ist alles ganz eitel spricht der Prediger.
bluntroller
 
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:47 pm


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